Dusk ( Asch ) (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
reducedtoasch) wrote2011-03-14 12:02 pm
reducedtoasch) wrote2011-03-14 12:02 pm
Entry tags:
Dusk vs Asch vs 'Luke'
This is partly a question meme, but also partly a 'see how long Ten can ramble about Dusk/Asch on various topics she's been meaning to talk about' essay... thing.
How Dusk started/is in Aather:
As anyone familiar with ToA has noticed, Dusk is extremely different from Asch. He doesn't yell and lose his temper for the most part (though recently he is slightly more inclined to), he doesn't hate Dawn, and he's a lot more levelheaded in general. He's also willing to listen to others, seek help or advice whenever he's confused about something, and is a lot more open with his thoughts and emotions. A lot of this stems from the person he naturally is; someone mindfully trying to be a good person doing good things. But for the most part it's what he learned from his starter memory, which was receiving etiquette lessons as a child.
Even though he's different from Asch, Dusk still shares a lot of faults with Asch, though they're mostly the less obvious ones as compared to Asch's anger issues and his need to stab certain replicas. Dusk is a little dumb sometimes, especially about certain subjects, and Feelings are super awkward for him to talk about. He's also very self-conscious and self-aware; a lot of what he says or does is usually a calculated or trained response from him. He typically aims for a 'right' answer instead of his honest opinion; he'll act and make decisions based on what others want/what's good for others over himself. A good example of placing other's wants before his own are the traumagames; he never spoke up in either of them to defend the teams where people he deeply cared for (Dawn, Guy/Spark, Natalia, Silk Cat) were on. In the first game, he tried to play it evenly by spreading out points over teams they hadn't targeted/defended in the first round, which he wasn't there for. In the last one, he followed Souya's plan in the first round and allowed for Mitchell and Kite to speak up for the teams they wanted to defend and adjusted rankings of the other teams to meet what they wanted in the second. Admittedly, a large part of this was because Ruby wasn't in the rankings and Guy was on Turquoise, which was the first team Kite wanted to defend, but I think that even if Ruby had been in the game and Guy on a less favored team, Dusk wouldn't have spoken up. Kite was the one who moved Kunzite higher for Dusk, which he appreciated a lot, but he still wouldn't have made that suggestion himself. He would have fought a lot more for being objective, because that's the only way he could have dealt with whatever aftermath would have resulted.
WHAT THIS BOILS DOWN TO is that Dusk purposefully represses his personal emotions and desires a lot. Not nearly as much as Asch does, but generally he won't talk about what's bothering him or what he wants unless he's asked/pushed to. Guy and Kite, whom he made a promise to, are the only ones he'll be open to on his own, though rarely; even around Dawn he's generally reserved. The reason he's like that ties back to his first memory again, which was etiquette/noble behavior/etc. Kings don't sit on a throne and complain about things! They put on a face, make fair and objective decisions, etc etc. It all seemed very sensible to him, which is why he's kept with it for so long, but it's also very... unhealthy. It means he has a lot of feelings he doesn't feel comfortable talking to anyone about them. Guy and Kite usually end up getting only what's bothering him at the surface; take the thing with Dawn for example. He told them both about how he was worried Dawn wouldn't wake up and he felt guilty for being a part of the reason why Dawn passed out by telling him the memory, but he hasn't really told either of them about his resolve to... filter whatever memories he tells Dawn from now on or that he's scared to tell Dawn things period now because this might happen again and he doesn't want it to. The image he's projecting instead is that this whole thing is said and done with.
Dusk also has a very strong need to be needed. It's something he and Dawn have in common and yet differ on; they both want to be liked, but Dusk interprets being liked as being useful. In canon, Asch stated once that he would have been completely okay with being used by Van if only he didn't disagree with the plan that Van wanted to use him for. If Van had wanted to use him for saving the world through a method that didn't involve killing everybody, Asch would have gone along with it, even if he had to die as a result. Because he'd have been useful. While Dusk isn't nearly as extreme in thought, he does believe that people won't like him if he isn't actively giving them a reason to, either by being a good teammate, a good brother, etc etc. He can't fathom people liking him for him because he doesn't make very much of himself available to people to like. He thinks they like the person that he's projecting himself to be, which is what he wants! He's okay with that. It's why Kaworu telling him he wasn't as fun as Dawn didn't bother him that much; he's very much aware that he and Dawn are different and that Dawn's a lot more open and expressive than he is, which makes him more interesting. Dusk isn't interested in being interesting. Dusk just wants to be necessary and that's where he derives a lot of his own happiness from.
I believe most of what makes up Dusk is how Asch could have been in canon if the whole getting kidnapped/replicated/etc thing didn't happen to him, ie if he were still 'Luke' instead of becoming 'Asch'. He had a lot of potential as a child, having been a hardworker and extremely dedicated toward becoming a good king for Kimlasca, and Van essentially stripped all of that away from him by kicking off his REPLICATE THE WORLD plan so 'Luke' was almost completely buried under all of Asch's negative feelings.
All of those negative feelings, however, are tied directly to his memories. So when he arrived in Aather, they were all pretty much gone, which left him with a 'Luke' base personality. I purposefully picked a 'Luke' memory for him as his first memory to help cement this fact in his head. So for the most part, Dusk is 'Luke.' This strongly affects the way he's responded to things so far and generally who he is, but recently he's been getting Asch memories back and that has been... triggering stuff.
Dusk vs Asch vs Luke:
Dusk's first two memories were of him as Luke, which cemented his 'need to be needed' thing and his general personality. His last two memories were of him as Asch which... threw him completely for a loop in a number of different ways.
One of the first ways is his purpose (need to be needed thing). He's under the impression now that he doesn't become king, and is in fact no longer a noble considering the company he keeps. This bothered him a lot initially, because to him it felt like back home he wasn't necessary any longer. However, he's been able to build himself up a purpose here in Aather. His team needs him! Sleeping Beauty needs him! Dusk being stubborn about remaining Dawn's brother even after they found out they weren't related is also one of these things, but that's a lot more subconscious. This has helped a lot in dealing with the loss of purpose, and his second memory showed that even though he wasn't necessarily a noble, he was still working to do good things. This helped a lot too in showing him that his original purpose doesn't have to be his only one. So it's really shifted the whole 'I need a purpose' mindframe which was a lot more dependent on himself to more of the 'I want to be needed' one that's mentioned above, which depends a lot more on how he views others... viewing him.
The other way is the sudden return of anger issues. 'Luke' and Dusk are both very composed individuals who believe that things like emotions are best kept to one's self. Asch, on the other hand, is an extreme case of I WILL LET EVERYONE KNOW MY FEELINGS THROUGH YELLING. HOWEVER Asch's way of emotioning is a lot more natural feeling than Dusk's or Luke's. Which was why he started having rage fits after getting back his memory of having them; they felt normal to his body. Except Dusk finds the whole thing kind of appalling, which is why he felt horrible every time he slipped into a rage fit. He doesn't want to be that kind of person! He scared Valiant, worried his team, and god he kicked a tree in front of Dawn and Guy. It's really embarrassing for him to have given into those feelings of anger and frustration, which is part of the reason why he's rejecting returning to Asch (that and the whole hating Dawn thing).
He's also scared to get angry. He nearly hyperresonated when he got ticked off at Wrath for punching Guy, and from everything that happened to Dawn he's since established that glowing gold = bad. Is he going to knock himself out every time he gets really mad about something and have to spend a day in Dawn's head? Because that... can't be good for either of them.
At the same time, Asch's rage fits are kind of... healthy for him, so long as they don't hit that hyperresonating limit. It means he's not bottling everything up inside, and because he's actively not targetting Luke when he has them, he gets his anger and frustrations out on the local flora instead. That's healthy... ish...
If you asked Dusk to pick a past self to return to, he would very easily pick Luke over Asch. His thoughts, behaviors, and such align a lot more strongly with Luke's because that's how he started out as. Luke memories! And then he got memories of this really angry crass individual who was a jerk to the people he worked with. He just plain out doesn't like Asch. At all, and he doubts there's anything in his memories that will really change his mind on the matter. He can accept though that Asch was him; there's no real way to go 'oops wrong memory' in Aather so, for whatever reason, he eventually becomes Asch. What he's really hoping is that most of his life was spent as Luke and Asch was only a recent thing but with the way his memories are composed right now, it's hard to tell.
Over Luke, however, he would choose to remain Dusk. He likes himself this way. He likes the people who are important to him, his current role in life, and most of the things he's stood for and done. Luke was intended to be a noble and, thanks to his Asch memories, Dusk knows that won't ever be true. So he can't really go back to being Luke. It's better being Dusk.
Regarding composition between his Asch and Luke selves, Dusk used to be 100% Luke. Now he's more around 80% Luke, 20% Asch, with the 20% Asch being uncontrollable anger urges. They're definitely there, and he's a lot more inclined to give into them no matter how much he doesn't like them.
Dusk now:
Dusk will be trying to figure out how to deal with his anger issues without needing to be followed around all day by Valiant and a cold bucket of water. He's at a loss over how to though, because they're not concentrated like Asch's were. With Asch, just don't mention certain subjects around him and he could be okay. With Dusk though, what makes him angry is a lot less predictable. Bad things happening to his important people is a given, but god, what else will he get irrationally anger over? Is he going to knock himself out getting angry over some incest stealing his food? It's a worry he has and he'll... probably try to work through it with Valiant a little, but mostly he'll try to figure it out on his own and... get nowhere so long as he's rejecting Asch, probably.
He's also... more invested in earning back memories, I would say. He wants to find out the bad things in his/Dawn's life before Dawn does! So maybe this time he can tell Dawn in the right way about something bad he did in the past. He also wants to know why he became Asch and if there's any way he went back to being Luke or something because Asch sucks. So as a result, he won't be as casual about games as he's been in the past and will be more focused on winning whenever applicable.
RE: the whole Dawn and Ruby thing, Dusk is just... not going to go to Ruby's cabin anymore. He's more than aware he ticked them off about Dawn and at the moment he's unsure of where he stands with them. They're important to Dawn though, and he's seen how important Dawn is to them, and rather than risking some sort of fight over his relationship with Dawn he'd rather just avoid them altogether and take more care in the way he deals with Dawn. That isn't to say he'll avoid every Ruby he comes across out in the open, nor will he avoid Dawn, but he won't casually strike up a conversation with a Ruby as he may have been inclined to before and whenever he needs to talk with Dawn he'll seek him out when he's somewhere that isn't Ruby's cabin.
I THINK... that is everything I wanted to talk about. That was also really all over the place, but if you have any specific questions about Asch/Dusk or Chariot/Dino, feel free to ask them here.
How Dusk started/is in Aather:
As anyone familiar with ToA has noticed, Dusk is extremely different from Asch. He doesn't yell and lose his temper for the most part (though recently he is slightly more inclined to), he doesn't hate Dawn, and he's a lot more levelheaded in general. He's also willing to listen to others, seek help or advice whenever he's confused about something, and is a lot more open with his thoughts and emotions. A lot of this stems from the person he naturally is; someone mindfully trying to be a good person doing good things. But for the most part it's what he learned from his starter memory, which was receiving etiquette lessons as a child.
Even though he's different from Asch, Dusk still shares a lot of faults with Asch, though they're mostly the less obvious ones as compared to Asch's anger issues and his need to stab certain replicas. Dusk is a little dumb sometimes, especially about certain subjects, and Feelings are super awkward for him to talk about. He's also very self-conscious and self-aware; a lot of what he says or does is usually a calculated or trained response from him. He typically aims for a 'right' answer instead of his honest opinion; he'll act and make decisions based on what others want/what's good for others over himself. A good example of placing other's wants before his own are the traumagames; he never spoke up in either of them to defend the teams where people he deeply cared for (Dawn, Guy/Spark, Natalia, Silk Cat) were on. In the first game, he tried to play it evenly by spreading out points over teams they hadn't targeted/defended in the first round, which he wasn't there for. In the last one, he followed Souya's plan in the first round and allowed for Mitchell and Kite to speak up for the teams they wanted to defend and adjusted rankings of the other teams to meet what they wanted in the second. Admittedly, a large part of this was because Ruby wasn't in the rankings and Guy was on Turquoise, which was the first team Kite wanted to defend, but I think that even if Ruby had been in the game and Guy on a less favored team, Dusk wouldn't have spoken up. Kite was the one who moved Kunzite higher for Dusk, which he appreciated a lot, but he still wouldn't have made that suggestion himself. He would have fought a lot more for being objective, because that's the only way he could have dealt with whatever aftermath would have resulted.
WHAT THIS BOILS DOWN TO is that Dusk purposefully represses his personal emotions and desires a lot. Not nearly as much as Asch does, but generally he won't talk about what's bothering him or what he wants unless he's asked/pushed to. Guy and Kite, whom he made a promise to, are the only ones he'll be open to on his own, though rarely; even around Dawn he's generally reserved. The reason he's like that ties back to his first memory again, which was etiquette/noble behavior/etc. Kings don't sit on a throne and complain about things! They put on a face, make fair and objective decisions, etc etc. It all seemed very sensible to him, which is why he's kept with it for so long, but it's also very... unhealthy. It means he has a lot of feelings he doesn't feel comfortable talking to anyone about them. Guy and Kite usually end up getting only what's bothering him at the surface; take the thing with Dawn for example. He told them both about how he was worried Dawn wouldn't wake up and he felt guilty for being a part of the reason why Dawn passed out by telling him the memory, but he hasn't really told either of them about his resolve to... filter whatever memories he tells Dawn from now on or that he's scared to tell Dawn things period now because this might happen again and he doesn't want it to. The image he's projecting instead is that this whole thing is said and done with.
Dusk also has a very strong need to be needed. It's something he and Dawn have in common and yet differ on; they both want to be liked, but Dusk interprets being liked as being useful. In canon, Asch stated once that he would have been completely okay with being used by Van if only he didn't disagree with the plan that Van wanted to use him for. If Van had wanted to use him for saving the world through a method that didn't involve killing everybody, Asch would have gone along with it, even if he had to die as a result. Because he'd have been useful. While Dusk isn't nearly as extreme in thought, he does believe that people won't like him if he isn't actively giving them a reason to, either by being a good teammate, a good brother, etc etc. He can't fathom people liking him for him because he doesn't make very much of himself available to people to like. He thinks they like the person that he's projecting himself to be, which is what he wants! He's okay with that. It's why Kaworu telling him he wasn't as fun as Dawn didn't bother him that much; he's very much aware that he and Dawn are different and that Dawn's a lot more open and expressive than he is, which makes him more interesting. Dusk isn't interested in being interesting. Dusk just wants to be necessary and that's where he derives a lot of his own happiness from.
I believe most of what makes up Dusk is how Asch could have been in canon if the whole getting kidnapped/replicated/etc thing didn't happen to him, ie if he were still 'Luke' instead of becoming 'Asch'. He had a lot of potential as a child, having been a hardworker and extremely dedicated toward becoming a good king for Kimlasca, and Van essentially stripped all of that away from him by kicking off his REPLICATE THE WORLD plan so 'Luke' was almost completely buried under all of Asch's negative feelings.
All of those negative feelings, however, are tied directly to his memories. So when he arrived in Aather, they were all pretty much gone, which left him with a 'Luke' base personality. I purposefully picked a 'Luke' memory for him as his first memory to help cement this fact in his head. So for the most part, Dusk is 'Luke.' This strongly affects the way he's responded to things so far and generally who he is, but recently he's been getting Asch memories back and that has been... triggering stuff.
Dusk vs Asch vs Luke:
Dusk's first two memories were of him as Luke, which cemented his 'need to be needed' thing and his general personality. His last two memories were of him as Asch which... threw him completely for a loop in a number of different ways.
One of the first ways is his purpose (need to be needed thing). He's under the impression now that he doesn't become king, and is in fact no longer a noble considering the company he keeps. This bothered him a lot initially, because to him it felt like back home he wasn't necessary any longer. However, he's been able to build himself up a purpose here in Aather. His team needs him! Sleeping Beauty needs him! Dusk being stubborn about remaining Dawn's brother even after they found out they weren't related is also one of these things, but that's a lot more subconscious. This has helped a lot in dealing with the loss of purpose, and his second memory showed that even though he wasn't necessarily a noble, he was still working to do good things. This helped a lot too in showing him that his original purpose doesn't have to be his only one. So it's really shifted the whole 'I need a purpose' mindframe which was a lot more dependent on himself to more of the 'I want to be needed' one that's mentioned above, which depends a lot more on how he views others... viewing him.
The other way is the sudden return of anger issues. 'Luke' and Dusk are both very composed individuals who believe that things like emotions are best kept to one's self. Asch, on the other hand, is an extreme case of I WILL LET EVERYONE KNOW MY FEELINGS THROUGH YELLING. HOWEVER Asch's way of emotioning is a lot more natural feeling than Dusk's or Luke's. Which was why he started having rage fits after getting back his memory of having them; they felt normal to his body. Except Dusk finds the whole thing kind of appalling, which is why he felt horrible every time he slipped into a rage fit. He doesn't want to be that kind of person! He scared Valiant, worried his team, and god he kicked a tree in front of Dawn and Guy. It's really embarrassing for him to have given into those feelings of anger and frustration, which is part of the reason why he's rejecting returning to Asch (that and the whole hating Dawn thing).
He's also scared to get angry. He nearly hyperresonated when he got ticked off at Wrath for punching Guy, and from everything that happened to Dawn he's since established that glowing gold = bad. Is he going to knock himself out every time he gets really mad about something and have to spend a day in Dawn's head? Because that... can't be good for either of them.
At the same time, Asch's rage fits are kind of... healthy for him, so long as they don't hit that hyperresonating limit. It means he's not bottling everything up inside, and because he's actively not targetting Luke when he has them, he gets his anger and frustrations out on the local flora instead. That's healthy... ish...
If you asked Dusk to pick a past self to return to, he would very easily pick Luke over Asch. His thoughts, behaviors, and such align a lot more strongly with Luke's because that's how he started out as. Luke memories! And then he got memories of this really angry crass individual who was a jerk to the people he worked with. He just plain out doesn't like Asch. At all, and he doubts there's anything in his memories that will really change his mind on the matter. He can accept though that Asch was him; there's no real way to go 'oops wrong memory' in Aather so, for whatever reason, he eventually becomes Asch. What he's really hoping is that most of his life was spent as Luke and Asch was only a recent thing but with the way his memories are composed right now, it's hard to tell.
Over Luke, however, he would choose to remain Dusk. He likes himself this way. He likes the people who are important to him, his current role in life, and most of the things he's stood for and done. Luke was intended to be a noble and, thanks to his Asch memories, Dusk knows that won't ever be true. So he can't really go back to being Luke. It's better being Dusk.
Regarding composition between his Asch and Luke selves, Dusk used to be 100% Luke. Now he's more around 80% Luke, 20% Asch, with the 20% Asch being uncontrollable anger urges. They're definitely there, and he's a lot more inclined to give into them no matter how much he doesn't like them.
Dusk now:
Dusk will be trying to figure out how to deal with his anger issues without needing to be followed around all day by Valiant and a cold bucket of water. He's at a loss over how to though, because they're not concentrated like Asch's were. With Asch, just don't mention certain subjects around him and he could be okay. With Dusk though, what makes him angry is a lot less predictable. Bad things happening to his important people is a given, but god, what else will he get irrationally anger over? Is he going to knock himself out getting angry over some incest stealing his food? It's a worry he has and he'll... probably try to work through it with Valiant a little, but mostly he'll try to figure it out on his own and... get nowhere so long as he's rejecting Asch, probably.
He's also... more invested in earning back memories, I would say. He wants to find out the bad things in his/Dawn's life before Dawn does! So maybe this time he can tell Dawn in the right way about something bad he did in the past. He also wants to know why he became Asch and if there's any way he went back to being Luke or something because Asch sucks. So as a result, he won't be as casual about games as he's been in the past and will be more focused on winning whenever applicable.
RE: the whole Dawn and Ruby thing, Dusk is just... not going to go to Ruby's cabin anymore. He's more than aware he ticked them off about Dawn and at the moment he's unsure of where he stands with them. They're important to Dawn though, and he's seen how important Dawn is to them, and rather than risking some sort of fight over his relationship with Dawn he'd rather just avoid them altogether and take more care in the way he deals with Dawn. That isn't to say he'll avoid every Ruby he comes across out in the open, nor will he avoid Dawn, but he won't casually strike up a conversation with a Ruby as he may have been inclined to before and whenever he needs to talk with Dawn he'll seek him out when he's somewhere that isn't Ruby's cabin.
I THINK... that is everything I wanted to talk about. That was also really all over the place, but if you have any specific questions about Asch/Dusk or Chariot/Dino, feel free to ask them here.